Quentin Tarantino tackling the Manson Family Murders for his next movie.

Discussion in 'General' started by MorallySound, Jul 12, 2017.

  1. unclefred

    unclefred Member

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    I say he pushed her off the boat. Maybe she visited Natalie down there.
     
  2. shape22

    shape22 Well-Known Member

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    I like Kill Bill. Death Proof is an abomination. I wanted to kill all those characters more than Stunt Man Mike.
     
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  3. CPT HOOK

    CPT HOOK Well-Known Member

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    I too was curious about this inclusion. Wasn't sure if it was in reference to any specific Hollywood legend, outside of the obvious Natalie Wood?

    I didn't remember until after the movie (and reading IMDB trivia) that a stuntman had visited Spahn ranch to check in on George Spahn and was murdered by the Manson family. Knowing this would have added a whole new level of tension to the already tense Spahn ranch visit in the movie. However, the timeline doesn't match up, as this murder happened after the Tate-LaBianca murders and before Manson was apprehended.
    Was the intent to clue the audience in on the movie's alt-history?

    Also, another twist on the murders is that they ignored the existence of first victim on the night of the Tate murders. He was visiting the tenant of the Tate's guest house that night, and ran into the Manson family while exiting the gate. Rick Dalton interfered this time, but I'd think they would have still encountered him going down the hill or simply passing by on Cielo Dr, even if Dalton's interference allowed for his survival this time.

    I think Tarantino deliberately played loose with the facts leading up to the murders as if to say these killers aren't as important as history thinks they are.
     
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  4. Cooperkill

    Cooperkill Active Member

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    I agree. Death Proof is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. If Uwe Boll's name was attached to it, and not Tarantino's, I believe it would be regarded as one of the biggest turds of all time.
     
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  5. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    I friggin' love Death Proof. Could have used a weekend to rewrite the second half (the "I'll be your best friend, crack your back whenever you want", and the whole concept of "Ship's Mast" were...clunky). Not bad, just seemed like QT needed a way to have Zoe Bell on the hood of that Challenger and that was the first idea he came up with. Lock the doors for two days, get out the laptop, and re-do it, Quentin. Other than that, it was a great ode to car movies of the 70s (which frequently had 75 minutes of padding surrounding 15 minutes of car chases), and the first half is just top notch.

    Quentin was dumbing himself down a bit, intentionally, and it showed. He was purposely avoiding the wonderful dialog of several of his earlier movies, or what he'd do with Inglourious Basterds. For that reason, he said it had to be his "worst movie", again, intentionally. As in, he was WRITING it to be his worst. A lot of people have totally misinterpreted that statement to mean he did not like how the film came out. Completely untrue. He LOVED the movie the way it was released, and was very depressed when it flopped.
     
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  6. Workshed

    Workshed A Barge Person

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    I love Death Proof, especially the extended edition. It's my favorite of his films, and I totally understand the hate, but I have a blast every single time I watch it. Fun and manic, with a wild and varied cast of characters.
     
  7. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    Other than the nod to The Bird With the Crystal Plumage, I don't like the extended version as much.
     
  8. CPT HOOK

    CPT HOOK Well-Known Member

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    I like the lapdance scene from the extended version, but otherwise prefer the tighter-paced theatrical.

    Even though it's not my favorite movie of his, I do think Death Proof and the Kill Bill movies are the most rewatchable. Probably due to the running time.

    Jackie Brown is my favorite of his movies, followed by Inglourious.
     
  9. shape22

    shape22 Well-Known Member

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    I'm really surprised at all the love for Death Proof. Despite too many viewings of Reservoir Dogs, I'm consistently tickled by how brilliantly that opening breakfast scene is written and staged. It's such an active pleasure for me to witness the way the scene unfolds and the characters are revealed--and it just strikes me as a bravura piece of movie-making throughout. The endless diner scene in Death Proof, on the other hand, was excruciating to sit through even the first time. To me, it seemed impossible that it was conceived and shaped by the guy who made QT's first 3 movies. There was an unbearable WE RULE smugness to the whole thing, and not only did I dislike it--it depressed me. My wife has a soft spot for Sex In The City--a show that always horrified me by the possibility that REAL WOMEN might actually be that superficial and self-absorbed deep down inside. Death Proof strikes me as a further extension of the same type of characters. I don't really believe actual females are that way, but like people say, you don't have TO BELIEVE SOMETHING to be afraid of it.

    I'm a huge fan of QT's, but I think it's fair to say that writing women has never been his strong suit. Jackie Brown is my favorite Tarantino flick, and he undoubtedly rose to the occasion for Pam Grier. But what happened after that? The Bride essentially operates as a male character in a hyper-masculine genre. Shosanna Dreyfus is practically a cypher despite an excellent performance by Melanie Laurent. Django Unchained has no memorable female characters. Daisy Domergue is similar to The Bride. And Sharon Tate is such a black hole in OUATIH that, aside from the opportunity to work with Tarantino, I can't imagine why Robbie wanted the part. I bring all this up only because I think it relates to the central weakness of Death Proof. At least for this guy, Stunt Man Mike is more likeable than most of the other characters. In general, I think Tarantino is much better at writing men. Compare his women to David Milch's multi-faceted female Deadwood characters and the issues really become glaringly obvious. Death Proof exposes that weakness by shifting the focus to something he doesn't do particularly well.
     
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  10. x666x

    x666x Well-Known Member

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    Saw Once Upon A Time in Hollywood tonight and it was just ok. A couple of good scenes. That's it. And I consider myself a fan of him.

    I never had issue with the length of his movies before, but this should have been an hour shorter also.
     
  11. Natas

    Natas Is it October yet?

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    Death Proof was a chore to sit through. The one car wreck scene was worth the price of admission though.

    Pulp is awesome. Django as well. Basterds was great but not a lot of rewatch value. I'll watch Christoph Waltz in a tampon commercial and enjoy the fuck out of it. Someone mentioned the opening scene in Basterds....that's probably my all time favorite Tarantino scene.

    Jackie Brown is also a masterpiece.

    I'd honestly say the Kill Bill movies are my least favorite from him.....but they're still pretty fucking cool

    Still contemplating seeing Hollywood in the theater. If I do I think I'll go to the theater in town that serves food and drinks right to your chair (Star Cinema Grill).
     
  12. unclefred

    unclefred Member

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    The Scenes at Spahn ranch were really effective for me. Especially if you know the story. The guy that Cliff beat up was Steve grogan, who was convicted of murdering the ranch hand, Shorty Shea. I think that was Shorty working the horses in the corral. Grogan is the only Manson character that has been paroled.
     
  13. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    Duh. Because she wanted her feet on screen, 50 feet high. Scorsese ain't doing that.

    No, I agree that Tarantino does not write women as well as he does men. Most of his female characters are in roles typically done by males as you cited, and much of Jackie Brown is really from Elmore Leonard, not Quentin Tarantino. I just enjoy Death Proof for what it is: an exploitation movie. QT has been amazingly successful in disguising B-movies as Oscar material. Death Proof is the one time he just hung it all out there (Kill Bill 1 as well, maybe), and I like it
     
  14. Erick H.

    Erick H. Well-Known Member

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    Saw the new film at a matinee.I would agree that it is sort of formless but the film didn't drag for me.The leads are very good and there's a strong supporting cast.I enjoyed the period touches and retro score.Gonna have to sleep on the finale though.Depending on your point of view it could be seen as imaginative or offensive.
     
  15. Anaestheus

    Anaestheus Well-Known Member

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    I liked this quite a bit and like my reaction to QT's past 3 films, I suspect that I'll like it a lot more on a second viewing. While I will agree that the pacing is slow and some scenes are a bit repetitive, I really didn't find it that meandering or pointless. I got pretty early on that he was mainly trying to capture the "end of an era" feeling and I thought he did a good job of getting that feeling across. And, the performances were top tier for just about everyone involved (except Pacino - what happened there?)

    Was it as good as Django, Jackie, or Dogs? No, I still think those are his best. But, for all it's sense of meandering, it was more focused and balanced than Basterds or Eight. And, for what it's worth, I put Pulp Fiction and Death Proof at the bottom of the list with him.

    And I am really looking forward to seeing this one again. For QT's last three films, I really felt the length and thought they needed serious editing the first time I saw them. But, subsequent viewings allowed me to take in each scene in different ways. For example, when I first saw Basterds, I hated the tavern scene with Fassbinder. It goes on forever with characters we don't really know or care about. But, after a second viewing I saw it as an amazing piece of writing and directing, it's a near 30 minute scene in one location with just a handful of actors that slowly just gets more and more tense. It's quite a masterpiece really and there aren't a lot of directors who would even try to pull something off like that. So, while it still sticks out in the overall film as a misstep because it ruins the rhythm, I still think it's one of the best things QT has done. And I suspect there are several scenes in Once... that I will likely feel the same way about when I revisit them.

    I'm going to just put the rest in spoilers.

    Things I hated:

    Al Pacino - this scene was just awful. It may even be worse than Mike Meyers in Basterds. Pacino just didn't do it right in any way.
    The scene with Bruce Lee did annoy me. It was funny as hell. But, it's so unlike the real man that I actually found it rather offensive
    The scene with the Family right before the murders. I hate that it made these people look goofy.
    Steve McQueen spells it out for you - this was a decent idea, but it just didn't flow as smoothly as it should have. The actor was great, but the lines were just too clunky and it really stood out as lazy.
    Dalton's wife is still in the house - maybe this was intentional, but Dalton is a bit of a dick for leaving his wife alone in the house right after the attack to go hang out with the Polanski's. Seriously dude. She has just been dropped in a new country and immediately attacked by crazed hippies. Go sit down with her you dink.
    Feet - so many feet. So many damned feet.
    The needle drops - I suppose this is just one of those nature of the beast things. In capturing the time period, QT had to use more mainstream popular music from the time. So, it didn't really have the punch of the deep cuts he usually pulls out. None of it was bad. I would just say it's one of his weakest playlists.

    Things I loved
    Picking up with the above last point, I really loved all of the other scenes involving the Manson Family. I thought it did a great job of showing them as this dark force hovering over the events. We got glimpses of the appeal but there was always the sense of menace floating over all of their interactions.
    Robbie/Tate - I could get a bit behind the criticisms that she doesn't speak. But I thought that he did a great job of showing her as a real human while simultaneously holding her as this icon of potential and promise. And, knowing the story (and expecting a different ending) I really felt for her. And her watching the Wrecking Crew was simply adorable.
    The DiCaprio/Dalton acting scene - this is probably going to end up being one of my favorite scenes. At the time, I thought it was way too slow and indulgent and it was driving me nuts watching it. But, it builds up to an excellent pay-off and once it was done, I felt the length and tedious nature of the opening was very necessary. And, yeah, it is a really good performance boosted by some great character investment built up by all of the previous scenes.
    Dalton's stammer - it was a little touch but I really loved his stammer
    The neon sign montage - even though it was a bit cliche, he did such a great job of finding obscure signs that I bet this was a blast for people who really lived there at the time.
    The ending - This is the most cathartic thing I have seen QT do. Yeah, his films usually have their "yeah" moments. But this really hit me. I almost cried when the dog attacked and I realized where this film was going to go. I had invested so much in these characters (Tate in particular from previous knowledge) that it just felt so good to see this be the turn. Fuck the Manson Family. Just fuck them. It made all the meandering worthwhile. And, I think justified most everything we had seen before. So, while I did feel like the film dragged at times, I felt this ending did justify those "drags" as it helped me get really into these characters so that this ending mattered to me. [/spoilers]
     
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  16. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

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    I too think Death Proof and Grindhouse as a whole is really fun. I'm not overly familiar with those old B movies. But I kind of remember them. So seeing Grindhouse and getting some of that nostalgia was fun. Also, I didn't watch any of the trailers. So in Death Proof the only thing I was thinking was that this was going to be Tarantino's horror movie. I couldn't wait to see the girls get to the location to see Tarantino's version of a slasher. Then the big surprise happened with the explanation of the title and realization of the murder weapon.

    It's just an awesome horror collection for me. So many cool things about Stuntman Mike. His drink and nachos. How he burns rubber in the second part and the girl's reaction. I still want to get a few Grindhouse lobby cards. I already own the making of book. So I guess it's high on my list.
     
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  17. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    I have the one of Sydney Tamiia Poitier underneath the Brigitte Bardot poster. In this collection, left side, second one down:

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Mutilated Prey

    Mutilated Prey Soul Stealer

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    I dug Death Proof as a whole. There was some definite unnecessary scenes that were pure filler, but Kurt Russell's character was awesome and the kills even better. Love the final act too. Very entertaining. I come back to Kurt though - he makes the movie.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
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  19. ImmortalSlasher

    ImmortalSlasher Well-Known Member

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    Stuntman Mike is great. I love the breakdown scene in the final act.

    In other news, Tarantino is saying that he might make a horror movie as his final movie. I assume a straight pure horror movie this time. I don't see why he wants to stick to his 10 movies if he really wants to do a Star Trek and horror movie or whatever else.
     
  20. Paff

    Paff Super Moderator

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    A bit of advice, and this is from a die-hard QT fan: Until he actually starts shooting, don't believe a fucking word that comes out of his mouth about his "next project"
     
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